I was fortunate enough to interview the Liverpool’s first black Lord Mayor for Getintothis, covering race, music, culture, Liverpool 8, the feminist taxi driver and Lord Woodbine…

Liverpool’s first black Lord Mayor Anna Rothery has been reappointed for another year as the city’s first citizen, making history twice over as this is also the first time in the city council’s history that a Lord Mayor will perform two successive terms.
It became clear in the course of this interview why the city council have awarded her with these honours; from the first words she strikes you as an eloquent, professional and fierce defender of her community, bursting with pride about her city.
She deals with the complex issues around race in Liverpool and beyond head on, and it’s no surprise she was named the UK’s most influential black politician at the National Baton Awards 2019.
Having been the council’s Chair of Culture Tourism and Sport from 2010 – 2013 means she has a profound knowledge of how politics and culture interact in the city, something she’ll be drawing on in coping with the effects of lockdown on the city’s culture.

Before we started it was made clear that the position of Lord Mayor is “non-political” – more of that later…

JP: For a lot of people it’s pretty confusing that Liverpool has got 3 mayors. Can you briefly run though why and what they all do?

AN: I’ll try… I don’t really know what the metro mayor does. I’m not being rude, but obviously I know what the elected mayor and myself do. But the metro mayor’s role is regional; I’ll do my best…
We’ve got Steve Rotherham who’s the regional mayor dealing with Halton, St Helens Liverpool etc., right up to Greater Manchester, and so he is responsible for insuring that we have the budgets to enable that the services are in place across the region including transport. He also works with our business community to look at how to stimulate local economies and how to create employment, working with universities so on and so forth.

And then we have our Liverpool elected mayor, Mayor Joe Anderson. He is a political leader for the city. He also looks at things like public transport and makes sure the budget fits the needs, speaking to national government so that we can encourage them to give us the appropriate level of funds so we can keep the city running day to day. He’s also concerned with the local economy working with businesses, universities and employers to ensure that we get the best deal for the city of Liverpool, and also ensures that the needs of all the communities across the whole of Liverpool are met in terms of what the city offers.

Then you’ve got me, the Lord Mayor, which is a bit confusing for people because this is a civic role. I’m the first citizen of Liverpool. The Lord Mayor’s position in Liverpool goes back to the days of King John; it’s one of the oldest Lord Mayor’s positions in the country. So I deal with civic issues and with heads of state who visit the city. I deal with businesses and universities and schools and schoolchildren and teachers; community organisations, equality groups, and I also meet visitors that come through the business community etc. I attend functions on behalf of the city, working with armed forces, navy so on and so forth, quite a heavy diary schedule throughout the year.

JP: Congratulations on securing a second term, that’s very impressive. A big part of how you describe your role is functioning as a role model.

AR: It is, yes!

JP: 2 questions about that, one is, especially as a black woman, being a role model brings extra responsibilities, do you consider that in any way a burden? And who was a role model for you? Who inspired your career?

AR: I don’t see it as a burden. I see it as a great opportunity to share with members of the city and further afield the value of our diversity within the city, lots of work that I do involves going into other communities and exploding myths and preconceived ideas that people may have about black people, reassuring people that we are exactly the same; we have the same wants, needs and aspirations as everybody does. We have to make a living, we have to support our children and want the best education for them, so on and so forth. The opportunity to go out into communities and talk about diversity and the beauty of diversity has been welcome. My theme for last year was “Equality For All” and I’m going to keep the same theme this year, you can see that in my choice of charities: the Anthony Walker Foundation, Amadudu women’s refuge which deals with women and their children fleeing domestic violence, Liverpool City Region Pride that deals with our LGBTQIA community, and also the Merseyside Somali Association. We’ve got one of the oldest Somali communities here in Liverpool. A very little known community, they tend to keep themselves to themselves, so it’s an opportunity to flag up the contribution they’ve made to the city. Many came here as seafarers many decades ago and chose this to be a place they call home. So it’s a great opportunity.

In terms of role models, I think we all have a number of role models; I think people touch our lives in different ways. One of my major role models is Rosa Parks, because what she’s shown me is that it’s not always the person with loudest voice that makes the greatest change. So it’s an opportunity to learn from people who perhaps have a very small voice and need someone to champion the change that they want to see.

JP: You’ve been a councillor since 2006 and now you have a non-political role. How do you keep them separate? It must take some mental gymnastics…

AR: I think it could be problematic, but my position in life in general, whether it’s in the political role or as the Lord Mayor, is that many of the issues that we’re confronted with and certainly that I’m confronted with, are human rights issues. It is literally impossible to do any job and remove the element of human rights from it, because everything is about human rights, from the air that we breathe, the food that we eat and the housing that we live in. There may be political issues, but first and foremost there are human rights issues and that’s the way in which I approach what concern me.

JP: A few questions about more recent stuff, which has been fairly dramatic. How is the city preparing for life after lock down?

AR: Well this is the major issue for everybody – how do we get back to some sense of normality beyond lockdown. Obviously that needs to have a clear focus on the global economy and how we can work with local businesses. We’ve got issues around community organisations, arts and culture that have suffered huge difficulties in terms of the lockdown; you can’t have a theatre that runs with no audience, and so the economy has really been hit hard and fast in terms of the money going into that sector. Currently we are looking at how we can stimulate the economy. We have a number of things at our disposal. Obviously we’ve had the furlough and we’ve had the grants and funds from central government and local government that businesses can tap in to. We’ve done our best to manage it in the city but now we have to go that little bit further and really it’s not going to be the Lord Mayor’s office or the Mayor’s office alone that’s going to be able to stimulate the economy. This needs everybody working together, from our universities, colleges, schools, businesses, the arts and culture sector; we need to pull together.

JP: Mayor Anderson has said that the city faces bankruptcy, yet you mentioned there are a few mechanisms we can still rely on. Is the outlook really that bleak or are you optimistic about what we could pull out of the bag?

AR: We have to be realistic about the state of play of Liverpool’s economy of over many years before lockdown. We’ve been trying to function on a very limited budget for many years and we’ve been making ends meet. But every year it becomes more and more difficult. You throw in to the mix a catastrophe like Covid 19 and that gives you some insight. The city needs support from central government in order to work through this because we don’t have that money in our coffers, our funds have been cut and cut back to the bone over many years, so we need central government to step in and help us to stimulate the economy again. That coupled with the good will of our businesses and communities means we’ll be able to pull through this, but we can’t get through it just on good will, we need an injection of cash.

JP: The hospitality sector, independent music and cultural businesses are really struggling, is there any support the city can direct at those particular areas?

AR: It’s basically getting back on track in terms of the visitor economy, the city is one of the top visitor destinations. We’ve had a buoyant economy based on visitors over many years, I think to some extent its helped us buck the trend, other cities have had real hard times economically. So the quicker we can get back to that state of play then the quicker we can start the recovery. But safety comes first; the city has to be safe. We need to know that we are keeping our residents and our businesses safe. It’s very much about timing on this issue and that’s not something that anybody can really pre-empt.

JP: It should have been the Africa Oye Festival last weekend – do you attend the festival?

AR: I do! I do! I think everybody attends that festival! It’s one of the best festivals I’d say nationally – it attracts people from all over the country in huge numbers. Cancellation is a great blow to the city in terms of the economy it stimulates: Lark Lane, surrounding areas, city centre. People come for the weekend taking our hotel rooms, so it’s having a massive impact on the city that we can’t go ahead with our planned festivals

JP: Liverpool culture, particularly music culture appears very white from the outside, in a way that, say, Bristol’s doesn’t. It’s a historical thing probably going back to The Beatles and the Merseybeat. Has anyone ever looked at means to promote the black music identity of Liverpool?

AR: Yes! We’ve got the Heritage Development Company. A group of local black men who’ve been working over the last 3 years to raise the profile, because when you say the perception is that it’s very white, it depends where you’re standing looking in, because everybody in the know knows that we’re equally famous for black music. The Rhythm and Blues and the stuff that pre-empted The Beatles got their chords from the African seamen so it depends on where you’re looking in terms of what you believe the city to be. The Heritage Development Company have done a series of events in terms of black history, the sporting industry, boxing etc., but they are also looking at music in terms of where the influence of black music played such an integral role in the Merseybeat. But we need to be doing more to raise the profile of the contributions made to the city and I think we’ve got some really exciting initiatives to look forward to in the coming years

JP: It’s interesting that you brought up the historical foundations of the Merseybeat. The term in musicology these days is The Black Atlantic for the culture that generated jazz, rock n roll etc. and for many people black music is the way in to appreciate black culture and appreciate the emotional aspect of the daily struggle. But to really understand the economic mechanisms and origins of racism it’s books that really open people’s eyes: CLR James The Black Jacobins and Martin Bernal Black Athena spring to mind. Are there any books in particular that inspired you?

AR: I think in terms of Liverpool’s position Loosen the Shackles is the must read, because that talks about the history going back to enslavement, but also in terms of the mental enslavement of black people. Because of lack of opportunities, lack of employment and education and so on, the black community has remained enslaved for many many years, a different enslavement all the same but still enslavement. Just to go back to the point you were making that it’s perceived to be white music in Liverpool, we can’t forget people like The Real Thing and The Christians – local black men who achieved international recognition with massive following. Fantastic local grass roots communities that came through and made amazing in roads in terms of the black music scene in Liverpool.

JP: Absolutely. Maybe the perception is an allusion to another factor that so many careers in black music are very short: black music and black musicians have never had the support for long term careers that their white counterparts have had.

AR: Well The Christians are still doing gigs and remaining band members of The Real Thing were doing something as recently as a couple of weeks ago, so the longevity in black music is there. Another interesting thing is around Lord Woodbine who was the manager of The Beatles in the first instance; he took them over to Hamburg yet was completely erased from history. He was literally whitewashed out of the photographs. The Beatles museum have just installed, thankfully, an exhibit paying homage to Lord Woodbine and the integral role he played with The Beatles. Just because it’s only just been recognised by the city doesn’t mean there isn’t an historical context, and it’s not known about. We’re not the sum total of what people choose to report about us, we’re the sum total of what we do.

JP: Absolutely. You mentioned The Christians and The Real Thing; do you have a favourite band? What are you listening to at the moment?

AR: Oh gosh! I only wish I had the chance to listen to some new music! I like a bit of Blues – I’ve got quite eclectic tastes. I like a bit of saxophony, Ronnie Laws, pretty jazzy kind of music I tend towards but I’m open to persuasion! I have very mixed tastes in music, it depends on the time of day, whether I’ve got time to sit and chill or whether I need something lively, but there’s plenty of black musicians out there to listen to.

JP: You are a key player in Operation Black Vote. Have you noticed any significant steps towards getting people to vote since the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent Black Lives Matter protests?

AR: I’m actually an alumni member of Operation Black Vote, I came in to my political career via that route as did many black councilors and black MPs. It was founded in the 50s and it’s apolitical; it works with people across all political persuasions, and obviously the narrative is about getting more BAME people into employment. Luckily enough Operation Black Vote is actually coming back to Liverpool this year, they’ve just gone through the recruitment and selection process and I’m really proud to say that the Mayor’s fund (Joe Anderson to avoid any confusion) has funded this initiative to find the next wave of black politicians to come through and represent the diverse communities of Liverpool. But it doesn’t just deal with political representation; it also works with getting people into the judiciary, on to school’s boards of governors etc. Getting people into public life – trying to deal with some of the disparities and level the playing field.

JP: One of the twin cities of Liverpool is Cologne – have you been over there?

AR: I haven’t! One of the things with Liverpool is that it won’t let me out of the city! I’m hoping this year that I’ll get to do a bit more travelling. It hasn’t been for lack of invites because we’ve worked across twin cities and other countries as well. It’s literally just the enormity of work last year, it was so full on. I do want to get out and meet some the partners we’ve worked with last year, it’ll give me a bit of a chance to spread our wonderful news far and wide!

JP: Cologne is much easier to get to than the other twin cities of Shanghai or Rio de Janeiro, possibly Dublin would be easier…

AR: I’ve actually had lots of work with my opposite number in Dublin. We’ve become firm friends over the last couple of months. We’re talking about doing an exchange with young people at the moment.

JP: Anything with Shanghai?

AR: I’ve not done anything with Shanghai – that might be a little bit too far for me. I can only get away for one or two days so I don’t think that’s on the horizon.

JP: Does Shanghai as a twin city have any resonance with the Chinese community in Liverpool?

AR: I’ve got a great relationship with our Chinese community. I grew up with them because I was raised in Liverpool 8 and they are wonderful, absolutely wonderful. So I don’t really need to travel to Shanghai to speak to Chinese people, we’ve got enough Chinese businesses here in Liverpool that trade internationally and we’ve got a wealth of knowledge and understanding right here in the city.

JP: You mentioned Liverpool 8. The photographer Don McCullin has got an exhibition coming up at Tate Liverpool showing some wonderful black and white photographs of Liverpool 8 in the 60s. High contrast, beautiful images but pretty unremittingly grim. Do you see a correlation between that kind of imagery and the reality of what it was like when you were a kid?

AR: Yes! I was born in ’62 and grew up in Belvedere Road and then further up into Upper Warwick Street and Beaconsfield Street off Granby Street, so I remember it well and there was a lack of economic equality, of opportunities for employment, businesses etc. So I’d say it is a real reflection of Liverpool 8 back in the day. These are the kind of things that the city’s working on now, to deal with those disparities so that the future isn’t going to look as bleak as the past. We’re making a number of initiatives to be released in the coming weeks and months to look at how we deal with that issue; how to open up economic equality and opportunities for employment and business start-ups etc. We’re working with some very strong partners across the city in order to do that.

JP: The government report into how Covid 19 has disproportionately effected BAME people and the fact that it’s been reduced to only a partial report…

AR: you’re taking me out of the bounds of my remit with that question; it’s very bad of you! You know that I really want to answer that! But one thing that I can say is that the report is being taken very seriously. We know – it’s a given – that BAME communities have been disproportionately effected by Covid 19 and obviously the city will be doing some work around that.

JP: How do recommendations of reports get implemented? It’s frustrating that the recommendations of the reports in to the death of Stephen Lawrence and beyond have still not been implemented. Are there structures in local government to implement recommendations even if central government don’t?

AR: Well of course there are select committees that can deal with local recommendations across cities and we have select committees here in Liverpool dealing with education, employment, culture, tourism etc., which are well attended by the cabinet members, and that’s where recommendations are proposed. I totally agree with you in terms of reports and audits and so on and so forth, certainly Liverpool has had many many reports, but the recommendations are unfortunately very difficult to implement, and they shouldn’t be. I know Liverpool is looking for a way forward in terms of how we implement those recommendations, but the thing is that people look towards governments and local councils for implementation but you can’t really do that. In order to implement recommendations we need the buy-in of all of our partners as well. What’s the point in one sector implementing recommendations if it’s not rolled out across all sectors? It’s impossible unless there’s complete buy-in.

JP: In your biography there’s a reference to your mother being a taxi driver…

AR: Yes that’s right, she was.

JP: Have you got an anecdote for us about her time as a taxi driver in the city?

AR: Well, she was a feminist. She was widowed at a very young age; my father died when I was quite young. She was left with four children to bring up on her own, so she went to work in the local taxi office, which was based on Granby Street. She was a call operator and realised quite quickly that the drivers earned more than women who were doing the operator’s job, and so called on the firm to give her a job as a taxi driver. She had a car, it was an old Riley, the one with the full seat at the front, and she said, “I’ve got a license, I’ve got a car, give me a job.” They were like: “no, you’re an operator”. She was that relentless, which I think is where I get it from, that in they end they just succumbed and said: “just give her her taxi plate and get her on the road”, and that’s how she fed her children. She was a taxi driver for about 25 years in total. She always used to say, “necessity is the mother of invention”, and her necessity was that she had 4 children to raise. She had a car, so there you go, she became a taxi driver.

JP: Lady taxi drivers were pretty few and far between back then…

AR: I’d have to get this substantiated, but I believe she was the first woman taxi driver in Liverpool, and there was only ever a handful for at least 20 years that I recall, although later we began to see more women coming into the profession. Back in that day you very rarely heard of a woman taxi driver.

JP: It’s been a treat to talk to you and congratulations again on your second term. When are you going to be able to start shaking hands again?

AR: It’s a lot of virtually shaking hands at the moment! Lots of Zooms and podcasts and stuff, but I’m in the same position as everybody else. I don’t want to put anybody in any danger; I will listen to the position of when it’s safe to go back. The community have been overwhelmingly well behaved and supportive of each other and I’d really like to mention out team of volunteers who have been amazing across the city. They’ve been feeding our elders and going and getting prescriptions. This is the city that I’m proud of, the city that pulls together in a crisis.